At the helm of South Christian Sailor Athletics for the past seven years, Curt Copeland has dedicated himself to making a positive impact on the lives of every student-athlete at the school, whether through social media, his website southchristiansports.com, or on the field. As he wraps up the 2020 school year and transitions to a new role at South Christian next year, join us on Thursday, May 28, at 1pm for a unique POV into the tips and tricks he uses create #SCPride across the community.
Drew Losee: Okay everybody thanks for attending today. My name is Drew Losee and I am the account specialist for all of our school conferences at VNN. For those of you who don’t know, VNN is a Grand Rapids based company who is the leader in, you know, a communication platform for high school athletics. And today I wanted to touch base with Curt Copeland over at South Christian. VNN works with a handful of OK conference schools like Rockford West, Ottawa, Hudsonville, and South Christian, which is why we’re talking with Curt.
Curt, today, you know over the years Curt has done an incredible job, you know, just building South Christian’s online presence both through social media and through, through their website. So I wanted to, you know, get on this webinar with Curt and some of his peers so he could just kind of, you know, go through, you know, just the educational discussion of, you know, how he’s been able to be successful over the years, and hopefully you guys can pick up on some things on some of his strategies, and some of the software that he’s using as well. So Curt, want to thank you for being on with us today, and hopefully this will be educational for everyone.
Curt Copeland: Awesome, thanks for having me, pretty excited.
DL: Alright so Curt, I’m going to go ahead and give you a presentation access so you can take control of the screen and show your screen to everybody.
So just kind of to get started, you know, over the years through talking, through talking with many athletic directors, you know, one of the things that I’ve kind of grasped on, is every AD kind of has their own personal philosophy when it comes to their athletic department. But also, their personal philosophy in terms of how they approach athletic communication and their online presence. So, you want to just get, maybe give a little background of, you know, what your personal philosophy is when it comes to those kind of things?
CC: Yeah for sure. So we, when I got hired at South Christian seven years ago, we were partnering with VNN. And at that point, we were just starting to see how useful of a tool a centrally located, one-stop shop website was for all of our athletic programs. So we knew it was vital to our community that they had a place to go get everything in one spot, have it be accurate, have it be up-to-date, have it be something. Like, it becomes part of their daily routine. So that was something that when I took over, it was something that I knew was going to be very important moving forward. And just like the general trends in high school athletics at the time, like seven, ten, years ago, you know, nobody really had websites.
If they were, they were just managed on their school website. They were pretty static, wasn’t a lot of great info out there, you know. You go back further, 15/20 years, like there’s no thing such as a school website. Nobody knew anything. Like, you’ve got all your information from, you know, you got your schedules, from a paper schedule, or a poster that somebody did at the beginning of the season, and you got your scores and recaps from the local newspapers, and so over time that has changed. And where this, a product like VNN has really allowed us to keep recognizing and been maintaining the things that we do on a day to day basis from an athletic department standpoint, in one spot. And again, like 20 years ago wasn’t a big deal, but now it is.
We’re following, you know, into the footsteps of the college’s. We’re like, all right people, got to know what’s going on, and they want to be, they want to be attracted to the things that you’re doing. And the website is one of those things. And so, you know, as a high school athletic director, you are, by default, a sports information director. You’re at a college level, there’s other people to help with that and serve in those roles. We’re in high schools, that’s just not feasible. And so it falls on the athletic director. And those things, I think we’ve just kind of accepted it, and we’ve ran with it and tried to make the best of it.
And that’s really fit into my own personal philosophy of how we wanted to recognize our student-athletes in a unique way. And so that’s why VNN has been a good partner for us at South.
DL: It’s great, and we really have seen that over the years. So I hope you’ve done an incredible job of building your website, and we always use you, as, you know, kind of our example for other schools in Michigan to kind of look at and, you know, take some tips from, and that’s exactly why we’re doing this today. So you obviously mentions that you guys are a VNN school and you use our VNN platform, but maybe you can kind of give us a little bit more detain as to into VNN and other softwares that you guys use, and just maybe how the software kind of helps you carry out what you guys are looking to do at South.
CC: Yeah. So we’re trying to make everything accurate in terms of information, in terms of schedules, to make sure that people know, okay, what’s going on this week, who’s playing where, where are the games that, you know, we make sure that all those. All that information gets displayed on our website in various areas, is up to date, and is accurate, because it’s important. So we use the VNN scheduler on the backend too, and it’s a really smooth, easy, simple product to use. It goes really quick to make edits, to make changes a lot of times, you know, typical spring rainy day like it is today, you’ll be cancelling games. And you can do it from your phone through the scheduler piece of VNN, so that’s one piece. And I think for us has been, at least for me, it’s been really useful to try to manage things on the fly, make it where it’s not too overwhelming or too cumbersome. All of our coaches, at least at the varsity level, we quote unquote require them to use the PressBox app to report scores, but we also encourage our sub-varsity teams to use those, just because it’s a great way to highlight the kids in your program, keep people up to date, and then those get synched right into our website.
And from there, we have the opportunity to share it on our social media platforms, which we’ve had a lot of page views that we’re getting from our score recaps, photos, those. A lot of the trail, you trail that stuff back, it’s coming from our social media, so we have a school Facebook page that we utilize, we have an athletics only Twitter account, and then we have an athletics only Instagram account. And those things kind of just mesh how we easily get communication to people, rather than having to have them seek it out, go onto the website. Right, so it’s showing up on their phone, it’s showing up on their news feeds, and that’s been a really, really good thing for us.
DL: Yeah that’s great. One of the huge huge pluses of the platform, just being able to, you know, kind of just post something in one place and it going to all the different channels that you need it. To go to, so your, you know, your athletic department social media accounts, your team specific social media accounts, your media contacts, and everything. So that’s awesome. You mentions schedules, so VNN has the ability to do scheduled syncs with a bunch of different companies. We have a formal partnership with Arbiter, and 818, and we also work with companies like Event Link and Our School Today. You mentioned that you use the VNN scheduler, and I guess, maybe just give a little background as to why you picked that specific method.
CC: Yeah. I just, I knew for me like if something, if the schedule was wrong somewhere, I know that I was going to be the one who’s going to be fielding the call of fielding the email and figuring out what in the world, why is it showing up this way when it’s not that way, or why are the changes that I’m making on a day-to-day basis not showing up, and so when we started diving into what’s the best way to do that, I mean this scheduler app you would call it, or just that product within the VNN site, was just so easy to use. And it’s just when you get into some data entry right, it’s like you just get into a rhythm and you understand, and you can do things quickly, and sometimes too quickly where you make your own mistakes. But I just find out, like, that I make less mistakes when we’re utilizing this scheduler product. And so, and it was something we already paid for right. We already bought it through our VNN package, was had access to it, and it was really smooth, and so I could, like I said, could do it from my laptop, I can do it from my phone, I could do it anywhere else and with no issues.
I mean, at one time I did it in the car on the way to a vacation. So like, there’s little things like that with scheduler that were really nice. You know we explored looking into 8 to 18, and because, you know, we wanted to still have some reporting tools and have ways to share contacts and things like that, so we still use scheduler for portions of that. Plus, you know, it just wasn’t something that we were ready to take on at the time. But I do know that other schools, VNN schools, are utilizing 8 to 18 and are having some success with that. So without actually using that product, I know there’s some really good endorsements out there. People who could potentially pick up on that, but the scheduler piece just allowed me to have some control, because I’m a little bit of a control freak at times when it comes to this website. So I know everything was going to be accurate in the right way, and took pride and making sure that that was going to be the way it was. And if there was a mistake, it was going to be something that I was going to fix, and I was going to own. And so that’s why we use it.
DL: Yeah. So the, I believe Bill Kennedy uses 8 to 18 over at West Ottawa, and then Cole Andrews uses our Arbiter sync over at Rockford High Schools. And so you might say, so you talk a little about the VNN scheduler, and so on VNN scheduler there’s really two ways that you can upload a schedule. You can use our interface to just enter in the game information one by one, or you can download our excel file template where you can just enter in all the games information once, and then upload that template into the system, and it will pull through, through your schedule. So do you use the one by one method, or do you use the Excel file upload?
CC: We’d use the one by one, just because it, like it’s so easy from a mirror now that we’ve shifted a little bit, and now Emily our athletic secretary is entering things on VNN right. Like once, you can enter an entire team schedule relatively quickly just based upon the pre-population and the way it’s set up. So for me, it was too easy not to use.
DL: Yeah for sure. So in 2019, you guys as an athletic website had over 684,000 page views. That’s like around from 57,00 a month. So what would you is maybe like, some of they keys to attracting eyes to your website and content?
CC: Well we knew we wanted to make it visually appealing, right. So when we redesigned it, we wanted to make sure that like, our school logo, our new logo that we adapted in 2018 was going to be present, and going to be like, this is going to be good. It’s almost like a branding thing right. Like we were trying to eliminate some of the old school anchors, and the old school SC’s streamlined, to make sure that when, this is the thicker SC and anchor, black. Like when it shows up, everybody knows that’s who it is. So that website had to be, have a really big presence with that, you know, But we look at the photo galleries and the page views, a lot of those come from the photo galleries. So we have either yearbook students or parents or community members who we set up partnerships with, or they’ll just go to games and take photos, and they can easily upload them from where they sit, and those are very attractive to both kids and parents and community members. Everybody likes seeing the photos, you know, download them from there. So that draws a lot fo people to our site.
We get a lot of views from that in my opinion, and you can kind of see it flows to like, we’re neat, you got a good photographer who’s putting up a lot of photos, your page views go up, and when you’re missing that boat, then the views go down. And then the PressBox posts that turn into regular articles. Now, obviously we’ve been shut down for a little bit, we don’t have any of those, but like, as you can see here, first district game, boys basketball right. Like here’s the recap, that would be one of the assistant coaches wrote and gave the snapshot of what the game was like, and so that then went to our social media, and so then got into people’s feeds from there. And so those, these types of things, the most consistent they are, and if we get them out in a timely fashion right, like the same night or written the next morning, like, people want to see that. And, you know, relatively quickly, and so having those opportunities on our site has helped build some of those page view as well.
DL: Yeah that’s, and going back to the photo galleries, that’s something we see with all of our schools across the country, is all of our schools that are, you know, at the top of the list for page views, are all schools who are putting out tons of photo galleries like you mentioned. You know, the community loves to see those photos, you know, it’s a visual medium, and those are super eye-catching and easy to flip through. So that’s huge for any of you guys trying to build your online presence, you know, whether it’s you snapping some photos, or whether you recruit a journalism class or a team parent or something like that, just have somebody with a quality camera out there just taking snapshots of our events. Yeah that’s, that’s great.
So you brought up social media a couple times, so just kind of curious, what would you say, like, how much time you spend on your website content versus social media content only. I know VNN, your social media, work together. But how would you say, you know, you kind of split your time with that.
CC: With that, it’s hard to tell. Because I, like, you know, things come up or there’s opportunities go get things on the side or get them out to the community. We, I kind of did it on like a needed basis. So it wasn’t a set schedule thing for me every week. What I would or wouldn’t do, like, it just allowed me, I used the website as not really necessarily a to-do list, but just like, if mom and dad or grandma and grandpa wanted to know what was going on in athletics this week, it was my priority to make sure that they knew what was going to happen, what is happening, and then what already happened. And so that was, I just always tried to maintain that, okay, you know, on a consistent basis, where that then, spending time in that, allowed me to spend a little less time on the social media side, Because then it just gets, you know, we just click a button, push send, and it goes. And from there then, it’s kind of off the plate for us so to say.
But, you know, I just know that when we put it out there, that’s when most of the interaction ends up happening. And so there were some really cool things that come out of making sure that the website was accurate, neat, appealing, and some stuff. It’s a place where people would go to find out everything about athletics.
DL: Yeah, so focusing more on social media then. What are some of the ways that you’ve been able to build up your social media accounts over the years?
CC: Yeah, so obviously the photo galleries are great. People like, people love that the scores, they want to know what’s going on, because I used to look in the Grand Rapids Press every morning to figure out what the results of the games were, but we did, we jumped in last year and started using BoxOut, which is a product that VNN partners with, BoxOut Sports, and this just allowed us to take off in my opinion, when it came to just graph like, infographics, and things we were doing on a day to day basis. Like, our community ate this up because we gave them previews.
Like, for example, you know, we had a purple basketball game. So we could really market it and help the people who were raising the funds, it was actually a current player who had been affected by cancer, like he was putting on this fundraiser game, and I said, “Dud, let’s get this in her, let’s get, let’s help you market it”. And so when you used the graphics, the infographics, that BoxOut provides, that really allows you to do some really cool things.
We had a radio broadcast partnership this year, and so we sought out some sponsors so Michigan Sports Radio broadcasts the games live online, five of our boys and girls basketball games on Friday nights this year, we were able to secure sponsorship from those with Chick-fil-a, and with Broadmoor Motors, and so from those companies I would go to him, say, hey, they price per game is X amount of dollars, you send me your logo and we will get your logo on all of our social media broadcast marketing shots for the week, and you know, all the promotion leading up to it. And then obviously in the game they would get a bunch too, but from an online social media presence, like, that was I think really helpful to see that to the local businesses who were jumping on board with us.
So you can, there’s a zillion things that you can do with this, the options in terms of templates of what they have. It was really helpful and allowed us to be visually appealing to our community and get information out to them quickly. And BoxOut’s really good about responding to things and help you. So for example, with football, we’ve got a bunch of cool things that we’ve made up. We’ve also used some schedule graphics, and it’s just like we’re not that far behind the colleges and what they’re doing in terms of infographics and social media.
I knew that this was something that one, it was interesting to me because of my graphic design background, but then also I knew we could do some really cool stuff with it. So we jumped on board and I just knew it was a really helpful thing that was only going to get us better, and then from that standpoint, so now moving into next semester next fall, there’s a student at our school who’s really into graphic design, he’s going to be a graphic designer, that’s what he’s going to do for a living right. But I also know the kid loves sports, and so we got it set up with our counselors and our administration, where this young student is going to be able to work with me, or our new athletic director, one hour a day every day and get school credit for it, and then help some of this stuff and build some of these graphics and help us with some schedule promotion, some score recaps, and sync all that into the website. So not only is it fun for us to do, but we’re having the opportunity to give a student real life experience and high school credit that will allow him to build his craft. And that’s something I’m really really excited about, watching this kids potential grow. And it’s something that a combination of passion about graphic design and passion about sports. And so, really super super excited that we jumped on with BoxOut, they have not disappointed.
DL: Yeah that’s awesome. It’s really cool here, you know, you’re taking somebody under your wing. I know that’s something that you’re passionate about. Something that we’ve discussed in personal conversations as well, but with BoxOut as well, you know for any of you guys out there that are interested, I encourage you to go look at South Christian’s social media feed. Their website, as well as West Ottawa, Bill does a great job with it. And Cole at Rockford does as well. And, you know, for those of you who don’t know much about BoxOut Sports, you know, kind of give you a background on them.
They started out, their main client base is colleges. So if you look at like, Notre Dame’s Twitter feeds, or Ohio State or Georgia Tech, or any schools like that, all the Big East, they actually all use BoxOut. You put out their graphics, and they make it incredibly easy. Curt, if you want to just click on one of those graphics that you made, they make it incredibly easy. You don’t even really need to have a background in computer design or anything like that because it’s just, they’ve developed these pre-created templates that just allow you to go through and just plug in, you know, information on the text boxes, drop some images in, and then it would just automatically create this, you know, professional level graphic for you right there. So, super easy tool, and this as well syncs with your social media. So you can actually type up a tweet from BoxOut and send it, send it out directly from the BoxOut platform.
So, encourage you to look at South Christian, look at West Ottawa and Rockford, and just see how they use it because it’s an incredible way to, you know, get some eyes to your social media platforms, and your website as well.
CC: This was, so this was important to us. I knew that, so there’s a cost that comes with it right, but if it’s something that you think is vital, it’s important, and like, I found a way to put this in my budget for next year because I feel like it’s such a great opportunity. So not only, all right, so I have the student who’s going to start working on stuff, our athletics secretary has access to do this if she wants to do something with it, we have digital signage throughout our school on a large flat-screen TV, so the administrator who’s in charge of that can utilize this in the yearbook of they’re interested, and we’re also, again, in the fall, expand to giving coaches opportunities to use this kind of stuff to promote your programs, or promote camps, or from a recruiting standpoint to get kids, you know, potential looks after high school.
These are all things that can be super helpful to coaches as well.
DL: Yeah that’s great. We’ve even seen schools use it, like, just school administration use it for, you know, teacher of the month and things like that, so it can be a non-athletics related too if you want to use it in that way.
So you mentioned a few times how, you know, you’re, next year, you’re delegating some work to a student and you do some, you know, with your athletic secretary as well, and you brought up your coaches a little bit. So just maybe give it a little bit more detail. What forms of content are you delegating to your coaches and staff? I know you mentioned a little bit about reporting scores and things like that, but maybe just give a little bit of detail of what they’re, what you delegate to them, what they used to carry that out.
CC: Yeah. So our coaches do a really good job of highlighting your programs, you know. When we started with VNN and using Press Box seven years ago, coaches were like dude you want me to do this now, like you want me to add this to my plate, you want me to be the newspaper reporter for my teams?
And they’re just like no, that is not what we want, but if there’s, this is something as an AD I’m going to delegate to you. As a coach, you delegated somebody else, so if you have an assistant coach, give them some responsibilities and allow them to utilize this platform. Or if you have a, whether it’s a team manager or you have a supportive parent or a community member, or anybody who you think will be willing to kind of help and jump in. And you don’t have to write 10 page novels. I tell coaches all the time, people want to know who you were playing, what the score was, if anything good happened, and what was coming up next. And our coaches have done a really good job over the years of either owning that themselves, passing it off to an assistant coach, or utilizing a current team parent.
And it’s been fun to see, because some of the coaches do a really good job of, because as a coach, sometimes you get lost in the shuffle of scores and playing time, and you got, you know, this and that. But like, I’ve seen our coaches utilize the Press Box app and really like, share some heartfelt feelings about a certain game or a certain team, and they’ve used that as a platform to kind of show the human aspect of themselves as coaches you know.
And for us, being a faith-based school, use it as a devotional tool, or just a way to highlight a school, a group of kids or individuals and what they’re doing, you know, and and off the field. It’s bee really cool. So the coaches who have owned it have with it, have done great with it. And it’s, like I said, you don’t have to, just like BoxOut, with Press Box, with all this stuff, you don’t have to have a detailed computer graphic background, like it’s set up for you to plug and play, enter data, super simple push in, and it looks super professional.
DL: So yeah. To give a little more background to Press Box, basically what happens is when a game finishes up, a coach receives a notification that basically says hey, remember to enter in your score and write your game recap article, and they click on that link and it takes them directly to where they need to go to plug in their score and where they can write an article. And what’s great about it is when they enter in all that information, when they publish it, it’ll go automatically to the website. It will go automatically to the social media channels that are connected, as well as any media contacts that are set up on the backend. So there’s, you know, no longer the days of having to, you know, call in scores to newspapers or anything like that, you can just put in their contact info and they’ll automatically receive that post and score. So just allowing the coach to publish it to update that, we can update the community and have it go to all the different spots that you need it to go to keep an eye on, with the trend of coaches. I mean I know there are a lot of ways that coaches kind of communicate with their teams and different things like that, and I know more and more schools are kind of moving away from exchanging personal cellphone numbers and doing text conversations, just because there’s really no way for, you know, administration to monitor those conversations. So what tools are available to your coaches that allow them to, you know, communicate with their team and parents?
CC: Yeah so, we, you know, every week we tell coaches and we have policy built in our school, handbooks about communicating with the kids, and how that’s appropriate, and what’s the expectation for us. And so we encourage them to use different products for that. So like football, boys basketball, girls basketball, uses Hudl for their video sharing platform right, but then Hudl has a messaging feature where, you know, if it’s a group message and it’s a safe thing and it’s a great way for kids to get communicated to a coach. But I know there’s a bunch of other apps out there, like a remind app, or you can message and manage contacts from that standpoint.
You know, VNN has some opportunities out there that we haven’t discussed and use because, just because our coaches have found out that they’ve got unique things that work for them, depending on whatever works in their program, yeah. But that was, it’s a really big key for us moving forward, as to making sure there’s opportunities for coaches to safely communicate with their kids. Because, you know, sometimes kids just don’t, as much as we want them to, but only want to give them opportunities that communicate face-to-face, it’s just not how they do it right now. So at some point, we got to get to their level to get them vital information.
DL: Yeah no, that’s great. So you brought up that, you know, VNN does have a way to kind of communicate with teams. It’s very similar, we have a, basically we partnered with another Grand Rapids based company called Max One to create our app called our VNN Team App, and it’s pretty much, it’s very similar to those remind and Team Snap type apps out here. And, basically, but it has a benefit of, you know, integrating directly into your VNN website. So, you know, coaches are able to use that app to enter in Press Box results, and then also they’re able to communicate with their team. So I’m going to switch over to my computer real quick just so you guys can kind of see how that works.
So yeah, this is basically the VNN Team App, ass you know it’s an integrated all-in-one app for your teams. And basically you’re able to have chat channels and send out communication blasts to your parents and your athletes as well. But then it has the added benefit of one, integrating with the VNN website, but also you as an administrator are able to view all communications, all chats that have been sent back and forth. So hopefully, you know, there’s never any inappropriate behavior that goes on, but if there is, you guys are protected and able to view all that information. I know Cole Andrews and Rockford use this app and have a home having it, you know, with everything going on and haven’t been able to use it too much, but they’ve been able to at least send out workouts and things like that for their athletes to do at home.
So, super useful tool that comes with the websites and hopefully you guys can start to utilize that come this fall. To kind of wrap up here, speaking on the pandemic and everything going on, school you know, not being in session and things like that. Going back to you guys, website content, you know, without there being any games or anything like that, do you want to maybe give some insight and how you’ve been able to, you know, keep pushing out content, and maybe some of the forms of content? Because you guys have been doing a good job with that.
CC: Yeah, so, you know, when you average 50 thousand page views a month, like, obviously people are looking for, they’re looking for stuff. And so we knew that with no activity, man, things are going to get real quiet soon, so how do we get, how do we get information. Or how do we, part of it was like how do we share good news about what’s going on, on South still. So we decided to dig back and do some of these throwback posts, trying to highlight every program possible, and just went and found whether it was a cool moment or a unique thing that happened. Or, you know, for example, girls basketball 2016 qualified for the state finals. They have a really exciting win against Country Day in the semis, so we just took that post that we did back in 2016 and just reposted it.
And they’ve got a lot of views, and they got a lot of people looking at social media. So, you know, highlighted state championships, and it was just a unique way for us to continue to highlight some of the things we’ve done in the past that were unique and special times for our community. But also, it was a way for us to bring good news to our community, and then we were, we also decided that within our academic structure, like we were, when we moved to online school, we wanted to make sure that our kids were being connected academically. And the teachers did a tremendous job of that. We were trying to take care of them spiritually, and so our Christian Ministries class and our religion department did a great job of connecting with kids there.
We also thought, man we got to get, when everyone was stuck at home, we got to them moving and we got to get them active. We got to do something, and so we provided, every weekday we put out a 20 to 30 minute at-home workout. So we used a page, just a static page down SouthChristianSports.com/workouts, and every day we would go in and post a motivational video from YouTube to kind of get, and so you know some of them were inspirational, as some of them were faith-based, it was a really good. And then our strength and conditioning coach Tim Pices did a great job of sending me some workouts, we posted them on YouTube and the notes integrated right into this page. So, you know, super simple stuff to do, but we wanted to make sure that our community was being taken care of spiritually and physically. And so we realized that, people go to SouthChristianSports.com a lot, let’s highlight some of the good stuff we did back in the day, and then let’s keep people physically active throughout this weird time. So we thought that those things were really helpful to us.
DL: Yeah no that’s great. You guys were being proactive and making sure that, you know, the community was, you know staying healthy. Physically, mentally, and also just the idea you know, reposting old articles, you know. It takes very little time and it’s something that’s clearly showing that causes some engagement. So that’s really smart on your guys’ part.
CC: Yeah because if we didn’t do it, if we didn’t do that we would be, it would be all negative stuff right. It would be COVID-19, and this is cancelled and this is cancelled, blah blah blah, so we just though it’d be good to mis in some good stuff.
DL: Yeah no that’s awesome. Yeah so I think that’s kind of all the questions I had on my end. I want to thank you Curt for taking the time to, you know, sit down with me and just kind of share with your peers, you know, some of the ways that you’ve been successful over the years and recently, you know, it’s clear by your guys’ page views and interactions with your community that you’re doing a stellar job. And, you know, hopefully other ADs in the conference see that and will maybe think about adopting some of your practices and software. Yeah, just want to thank you for your time man and hope you guys and your family continues to stay safe and healthy throughout this.
CC: Cool man thanks for having me it was fun happy too help.
DL: All right thanks man take care. And for anybody who is interesting in, you know, learning more about VNN or even BoxOut, like I said, you know, feel free to go ahead and check out, you know, South Christian, Hudsonville, West Ottawa, Rockford, check out their websites, check out their social media, you know, they used. And they use it very effectively as well. So if you’re interested in learning more about VNN or BoxOut, here’s my contact information, feel free to reach out and I will be sure to send all of you guys a copy of this webinar as well so you can look at it for later reference if needed. Alright thanks everybody.